In the second part of our conversation, Shadi Hamid and I get into a conversation about the contradictions of liberal universality.  Should we want Islamists to become liberals for instance?  Shadi argues for a liberalism that can appeal to the most possible people and I argue that, given we can never escape contestable premises, a liberalism based on progress best makes sense of these contradictions.

Shadi Hamid is a senior fellow in the Project on U.S. Relations with the Islamic World at the Brookings Institution and author of  "Islamic Exceptionalism: How the Struggle Over Islam is Reshaping the World" (St. Martin's Press), which was shortlisted for the 2017 Lionel Gelber Prize. He is also co-editor with Will McCants of “Rethinking Political Islam” (Oxford University Press) and co-author of “Militants, Criminals, and Warlords: The Challenge of Local Governance in an Age of Disorder” (Brookings Institution Press). His first book “Temptations of Power: Islamists and Illiberal Democracy in a New Middle East” (Oxford University Press) was named a Foreign Affairs "Best Book of 2014." Hamid served as director of research at the Brookings Doha Center until January 2014. Hamid is also a contributing editor at The Atlantic and vice-chair of the Project on Middle East Democracy's board of directors.